Follow the Leader or Follow the Heart?
As I have recently discovered blogging, I've been surfing the Jewish blogs. Mainly the frum ones. What I've found quite interesting is the different level of observance among those that are Orthodox, and their intolerance for other levels of observance.
Ive seen the Kashrut restrictions on tzeniut of waitresses being imposed on those who dont exactly follow the halachot of tzeniut, when two sorts of hashgachot should really be passed. One okaying the food, and the other, the ambiance. We need to accomodate every Jew no matter their level.
Another type of intolerance I've seen on the Blogs is a "can you believe what the Jewish community is coming to" sort of attitude. "When women cant wear tank tops, then you know the Jewish community is down the drain." Or, boy, our communities are becoming more and more close minded.
I spent shabbos earlier this year in the city of Bnei Berak, an almost entirely charedi community. And i'll tell you something: Theyre not opressed, theyre happy. Its not like the women dont have rights or anything, they are proud to self-impose restrictions. Its not like me'ah she'arim where they throw stones at you if you dont comply, these people created a framework for life that they are happy with. I think we need to respect that!
Charedim are happy with the 9 children, in a 2 room apartment, with simple food and such. They live a different lifestyle, and its not our own, but so what?! Are we so shallow to think that our hapiness, or even our role fulfillment depends on our freedom of dress, our monetary status, or something like that? In our world, if you dont like society's restrictions, you can leave your society. It really works for some people.
And not just charedim, but even within the Modern Orthodox communities. There are girls who will go out their in the 90 degree weather wearing their 3 quarter sleeves. Kudos to them! Its just a different framework a different lifestyle.
But worse than all this are those that say: "I dont think God intended, or I doubt that Judaism really thinks..." Because generally these lines are said about something that is a clear halachah. So you may not accept the halacha upon yourself, but to presume that you are familiar with the massechtot of Shas, with the sifrei halacha of the poskim, rishonim and achronim - I mean, do you know how much material there is out there? THATS a huge part of what Judaism is based on! There is a chain of mesorah, from God, to Moshe, to the Talmud, to the Rishonim that made halachot from the Talmud, to the Achronim, and our current generation that interpret those halachot. There is a chain of command. And just because Judaism gets in the way of your dress, doesnt mean that you should eliminate the rule from Judaism, perhaps you should eliminate the dress! Or at least think about it. Or better yet, respect those who do!
I was taught that Shulchan Aruch always comes first. But again, now I get myself scared. When should we follow the leader, and when should we follow our heart? Our heart tells us that its okay for boys and girls to talk at the pizza shops, but the Rambam tells us otherwise.
Well, I have to say I respect the opinion of those who say its okay for boys and girls to talk at the pizza shops. Guys need to learn how to talk to girls, and vice versa. In this day and age, things are diferent. But to say that its crazy to say that Judaism says for guys and girls to talk at a Pizza shop, thats just unfair.
We have to remember that there is no such thing as objective morality. Its bad to sleep with your sister. Why? Its icky? What makes it not moral? Nothing. What about an animal, or a man with a man? Just beacuse you dont want to do it, doesnt make it immoral. Some people do like that kinda stuff.
Things are immoral beacuse God defined it that way! Period. So whatever we picked up from American society as being wrong or immoral, or right and moral can easily be tossed. Its a man's freedom to wear a tanktop? It would be immoral to deny him that privledge? The only thing that is immoral are things that are against God's will. And God's will is for a man to wear sleeves to his elbow (see the Mishna Berurah). It keeps a person in a proper framework and state of mind, to remember (and I quote form Fiddler on the Roof) who he is , and what God expects him to do.
But back to my original question - When are we too structured, and when can we follow our hearts? Well believe it or not, life aint so black and white. And in those gray areas, we can toss in our judgement calls. In choosnig our poskim, we have to use our hearts, because we have no other tools. Where is the best place to live? Where should I go to school? These questions arent halachik, they are questions for your heart and mind. There might be some halachik issues to consider, but thats what halacha is - a way, a path, and it constantly reminds us of our responsibility.
But lets have respect for those who arent yet on your halachik level, and for those who are higher too.
Stay tuned...
Ive seen the Kashrut restrictions on tzeniut of waitresses being imposed on those who dont exactly follow the halachot of tzeniut, when two sorts of hashgachot should really be passed. One okaying the food, and the other, the ambiance. We need to accomodate every Jew no matter their level.
Another type of intolerance I've seen on the Blogs is a "can you believe what the Jewish community is coming to" sort of attitude. "When women cant wear tank tops, then you know the Jewish community is down the drain." Or, boy, our communities are becoming more and more close minded.
I spent shabbos earlier this year in the city of Bnei Berak, an almost entirely charedi community. And i'll tell you something: Theyre not opressed, theyre happy. Its not like the women dont have rights or anything, they are proud to self-impose restrictions. Its not like me'ah she'arim where they throw stones at you if you dont comply, these people created a framework for life that they are happy with. I think we need to respect that!
Charedim are happy with the 9 children, in a 2 room apartment, with simple food and such. They live a different lifestyle, and its not our own, but so what?! Are we so shallow to think that our hapiness, or even our role fulfillment depends on our freedom of dress, our monetary status, or something like that? In our world, if you dont like society's restrictions, you can leave your society. It really works for some people.
And not just charedim, but even within the Modern Orthodox communities. There are girls who will go out their in the 90 degree weather wearing their 3 quarter sleeves. Kudos to them! Its just a different framework a different lifestyle.
But worse than all this are those that say: "I dont think God intended, or I doubt that Judaism really thinks..." Because generally these lines are said about something that is a clear halachah. So you may not accept the halacha upon yourself, but to presume that you are familiar with the massechtot of Shas, with the sifrei halacha of the poskim, rishonim and achronim - I mean, do you know how much material there is out there? THATS a huge part of what Judaism is based on! There is a chain of mesorah, from God, to Moshe, to the Talmud, to the Rishonim that made halachot from the Talmud, to the Achronim, and our current generation that interpret those halachot. There is a chain of command. And just because Judaism gets in the way of your dress, doesnt mean that you should eliminate the rule from Judaism, perhaps you should eliminate the dress! Or at least think about it. Or better yet, respect those who do!
I was taught that Shulchan Aruch always comes first. But again, now I get myself scared. When should we follow the leader, and when should we follow our heart? Our heart tells us that its okay for boys and girls to talk at the pizza shops, but the Rambam tells us otherwise.
Well, I have to say I respect the opinion of those who say its okay for boys and girls to talk at the pizza shops. Guys need to learn how to talk to girls, and vice versa. In this day and age, things are diferent. But to say that its crazy to say that Judaism says for guys and girls to talk at a Pizza shop, thats just unfair.
We have to remember that there is no such thing as objective morality. Its bad to sleep with your sister. Why? Its icky? What makes it not moral? Nothing. What about an animal, or a man with a man? Just beacuse you dont want to do it, doesnt make it immoral. Some people do like that kinda stuff.
Things are immoral beacuse God defined it that way! Period. So whatever we picked up from American society as being wrong or immoral, or right and moral can easily be tossed. Its a man's freedom to wear a tanktop? It would be immoral to deny him that privledge? The only thing that is immoral are things that are against God's will. And God's will is for a man to wear sleeves to his elbow (see the Mishna Berurah). It keeps a person in a proper framework and state of mind, to remember (and I quote form Fiddler on the Roof) who he is , and what God expects him to do.
But back to my original question - When are we too structured, and when can we follow our hearts? Well believe it or not, life aint so black and white. And in those gray areas, we can toss in our judgement calls. In choosnig our poskim, we have to use our hearts, because we have no other tools. Where is the best place to live? Where should I go to school? These questions arent halachik, they are questions for your heart and mind. There might be some halachik issues to consider, but thats what halacha is - a way, a path, and it constantly reminds us of our responsibility.
But lets have respect for those who arent yet on your halachik level, and for those who are higher too.
Stay tuned...
posted by Armoth at 10:46 PM
26 Comments:
again.you are wise beyond your years.The complexities of Orthodox life.Keep thinking.
I have a theory on this. Society today (whether American, European, Israeli) is, quite frankly, in the crapper. Think back just 10 years ago, 20, 30. Things were SO much different then. People walk around dressed in ways that would have been almost ILLEGAL in 1985.
As the moral fabric of the Society around us fails, it OF COURSE is going to imact our own lives and they way we as jews view the world around us. It's impact, in many ways, is negative. In 1965, 13 year old girls just didn't walk around in tank tops and Juicy Coutuere minskirts. it just didn't happen. So no one was complaining that THEY couldnt. Now it's standard fare.
My point, unless society as a whole gets their minds out of the gutter, it ain't going to be any better for frum jews. People are influenced by what's around them. It's a simple fact of life.
"I have a theory on this. Society today (whether American, European, Israeli) is, quite frankly, in the crapper."
elster,
if the moral fabric of society around us is failing, and it will impact nagatively on us, then it seems that the only solution is for those who profess to be religious to totally withdraw from society. Otherwise, you seem to be predicting dire consequences for our religion.
So, elster, when are you moving to Square town?
Mike:
What I said was that we are impacted by society around us, often negatively. I didn't say that the only way to fight against the tide was totoal seperation.
Though maybe, in all honesty, that IS the best answer. Who knows? I, alas, am not strong enough for Square Town so will continue to swim upstream to the best of my limited abailities.
elster,
Your theory of society being in the "crapper" is as "true" today as it was twenty years ago, forty years ago, one hundred years ago etc...We always think that society is constantly spiralling down to the depths of depravity. Yet somehow we manage to live in the world w/o destroying our moral fiber.
Perhaps the situation is not as bad as you and the religious establishment make it out to be. Maybe we should look at the changing mores in society as just that-changing mores in a world which is still moral.
Otherwise, we better quarantine ourselves out of society.
Its funny that you say that mike, but like I've been saying, your statement had a lot of cultural baggage. You suggested that moving to "squareville" is highly irrational, and just silly. Yet the Rambam speaks about the circumstances of the community or culture one lives in and when one should move out of it, so much to the point that if there exists NO good community, then one should exile themselves to the desert!
While I do not suggest that, I do think, that for those who are on this level, one should try and limmit their contact with American culture.
I do not open Entertainment Weekly, or People magazine that my family has at home. I find it quite er...negative. I also watch only 2 tv shows, both of them pretty clean, not as clean as I'd like, but I do have a fast fwd button.
I believe that there is real chochmat hagoyim out there. There is science, math, literature, even art and music that I think it is very important to expose ourselves to the goyish world in order to take and use for our service of God. But it is also important to enclose ourselves and fence ourselves in to protect us against certain measures.
Fortunately, the Rabbis have created some fences, but each individual must find their weakpoints and structure their own fences.
Oh and Daat, I appreciate it ;-)
Come on back, ill try and update. Oh and tell your friends! lol
no time to comment now-will comment later...
What bugs me is that guys and girls are supposed to suddenly learn how to communicate with one another once they hit the shidduch parsha. Don't you think talking in pizza shops is a good thing?
Mike:
Its happens to be worse now than 20 40 100 years ago for the following reason: The moral fabric IS degenerating. It is doing so at a slow pace. Every 10 years there is a slip. If you cannot see that, you are blind.
That being said, I am by no means the "religious establishment".
Brianna: Personally, no, I don't think there is anything wrong wit hit. However, very often it leads to things that are worse. Don't get me wrong, I wish I had hung out with girls in Pizza stores mor when I was younger.
Alas for me.
Eh, see, now thats my mom's way of looking at it. I agree, boys and girls should figure out how to talk to one another, but it can easily get out of control.
1) I think that it just happens, maybe at a certain age, we all pretty much know how (11th or 12th grade) and from then on it should stop?
2) The world has been running itself just fine until now. Im not necessarily sure what will happen if guys and girls dont know how to talk to one another until after the 4th time (different girls) shidduch dating. You can learn that way too, its just that youre dating at a different age!
Actuaslly, I strongly feel that there is something to be said for male female contact at a young age. I am NOT for 13 year olds having boy/girl friends. I think that's stupid. BUT social interaction is key. I know guys who had no contact at younger ages, are MARRIED, but have absolutey NO CLUE how to relate to, or to understand girls. It's sad.
Did you see fiddler on the roof? I think that they will learn to relate. Though im more for the idea of learning women when starting to date. Dating for a year or so, get to know women.
I didnt always have these views so...heh, i did my fair share of talking to girls.
elster said:
"Its happens to be worse now than 20 40 100 years ago for the following reason: The moral fabric IS degenerating. It is doing so at a slow pace. Every 10 years there is a slip. If you cannot see that, you are blind."
elster,
I disagree. It is not worse now. I guarantee that you will be saying 10 yrs. from now the same thing (that whatever is the current time is the worse time). And if it true that the moral fabric is degenerating, then again the only solution is total withdrawal from society. And if you are not withdrawing, it is b/c the moral fabric is not that bad. maashal l'ma hadavar domeh: If there would be a problem with the septic in your community, and there was a foul odor-you would leave. Obviously the "odor" of moral depravity in our society is not foul enough for the religious to leave.
... and I do not see the "odor" getting foul enough for many years to come. We have the option of either living as part of this society as religious jews, or of leaving this society.
...Just to add another comment:
the fact that people are not dressing to the standards of modesty as set forth in halacha, does not mean that the people are immoral or depraved. IOW,you can dress in a moral modset fashion even if your dress does not meet the modesty standards of halacha.
It's not just dressing "to code", it's everything. if you don't see it, I ain't gonna cnvince you (thoiugh I will argue that you are fooling yourself. And again, NOWHERE did I say that society has reached the levels where we cannot live in it. That was you, putting words in my mouth.
immanuel said:
"Define morality. I dont think you are correct. Halacha defines morality."
Immanual,
1.Define halacha. tell me how in hilchot shabbat, kashrut, lulav does halacha define morality?
no, halacha does not define morality. it is not a system of ideas of right and wrong conduct. it IS a system of laws of RELIGIOUS conduct. One does not neccessarily need halacha in order to conduct their life in a moral (right and wrong)fashion. Morality can be a by product of keeping halacha, but morality is not defined by halacha. I do not need to keep halacha to be moral. I DO need to keep halacha to be religious.
2. If, as you say (and I disagree) halacha defines morality, and the halacha for modest dress requires the covering of elbow and knees,does this not mean that any woman who uncovers her elbow or knees or hair (married) is a depraved, licentious, immoral individual? agree or disagree.
elster-you said that the moral fabric of society is degenerating, and you said that it is worse now than it was in the past with a negative impact on us. and it is not getting any better. This sounds pretty dire to me. Yet, you say that society has not yet reached levels where we can not live in it. What will it take for you to say that society has reached levels where we can not live in it?
Perhaps it's time to agree to disagree Mike
I think that halacha DOES define what is moral. All youve stated is that, its crazy that halacha defines morality, because if thats true, then there are a lot of immoral people. Well yeah, then thats true! Youre letting cultural notions get in the way of determening truth.
Halachot determines God will.
I have defined morality as God's will.
You have NOT yet defined morality
manny,
can a non religious person be a moral person?
can an atheist be a moral person?
Is it possible for a person to keep God's will for shabbat, kashrut, lulav and still not be a moral person?
its not so black and white.
But again, you ask those questions with social baggage! What if I told you that an atheist is NOT a moral person - though most atheists do keep the 7 mitzvoth, so they sometimes are.
And again, you must realize that its per level. Not everyone is ready to be on the same level, and thats why no one can judge anyone.
But on whatever objective level we can perscribe, yeah, non religious people arent moral.
Now i know thatl set a million bells ringing, but once you define morality, and drop your culutural baggage, youll see the same thing.
I didnt say they are bad people, they can be very good people, they can be greater than you (as a person is judged by how well they fulfill their role as per their leve), but objectively, if they arent fulfilling what God defined objectively as His will, they are immoral.
Well, thats already going into judgement, because I cant tell you someone non religious is immoral, because i dont know what their netiot, their natural inclinations are, and how they are or arent conquering them, because techincally, what looks like a good person to you could be fulfilling God's will, so yeah, thats moral.
So lets stick to something simple: There is immoral dress. Forget the person wearing the dress, but the dress can be immoral.
"...Forget the person wearing the dress, but the dress can be immoral."
so... a moral person can do immoral actions, and still be a moral person.
I suggest that you look up two words in an english language dictionary:
1. Morality
2. Parochial (thesaurus this one)
and then tell me if you still hold by your definition of morality.
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